Razvan
i think doing a selfevaluation on this is a great pratice for couples
i mean, i think this should be like a mandatory initial information shared
Jeff
Transparency is helpful
Razvan.
but also an essential step towards growing intimacy
yes 1st selfawareness
2nd transperency
3rd conflict resolution
Jeff
You need self awareness to be transparent.
Razvan
well not necesserily
there are people who are transparent, but share chaotic information
selfesxpression is a mandatory selfesteem process
Jeff
Then they are translucent.
Razvan
ah
u have a specific term . alright
do you think these terms are intuitive tho ?
Jeff
Instead of transparent they are fuzzy. I'm not sure if they are intuitive.
Razvan
personally i still think they can be transparent. meaning they are able to convey specific , coherent information
but that information is unreliable
i mean.. they might actually believe it themselves and .. making it come true for a short period of time
Jeff
To me transparent implies clarity. Their information is clouded.
Razvan
my point is that it isnt clouded. it does represent them in that moment
but it wont next week
in another context
unaware people are people that lack integrity .. not actual coherence
i mean, it can be both of course
Jeff
If it is unreliable, does it accurately represent them?
Razvan
yes, in the now
i mean there 1 the transluncent people
Jeff
Wouldn't that make it reliable in the now?
Razvan
and 2 the transparent people made out of glass, and out of water
yes it does make it reliable in the now, unreliable long term
Jeff
Transparent now but foggy as time goes by?
Razvan
no , the issue is not the wall
its their substance, thats whats changing
the fogginess only comes in the eyes of the beholder, cause he had different expectations
he doesnt know if its a dirty wall or a different substance
Jeff
The issue is consistency?
Razvan
yeah
integrity
thats where selfawareness > self actualizattion comes in perhaps
Jeff
Can the ignorant have integrity?
Razvan
or perhaps its an underlying problem .. their mind cant hold on to concepts , cant prioritize
and there is no fixing it
unless you restrict their context
Jeff
They can learn
Razvan
yes, but just as before. a temporary lesson .. again i think we branch in two. the ones who once they hear the lesson they can gain that consistency / integrity. then there are those pathologically unable to retain concepts . brain chemistry
how would you define ignorant ?
Jeff
Lack of awareness. We are all ignorant of most things. When we are ignorant of things that affect us then we have problems.
Razvan
to answer ur question then, yes
ignorant people can have integrity
not sure if i presented you my model for human architecture
Jeff
What you posted in NVCa?
Razvan
our biology has core symbols > the intuition tries to convey these through emotions > we via philosophy name them values
so the core symbols still exist in a person even without him being aware of them
Jeff
Ignorant people will not look like they have integrity to someone who is aware.
Razvan
an uneducated person can still have integrity .. an animal can still have integrity
i disagree
awareness is a failsafe mechanism
Jeff
The aware person will see the contradictions.
Razvan
yes. but the argument was that ignorance doesnt translate into contradiction
you dont have to understand values to have values
your competence doesnt rely directly on your cognition
Jeff
If you are not aware then your actions won't match intentions. If they matched that would meet my need for integrity.
Razvan
the debate is on awareness being needed for integrity
you are not bringing an argument
you just took it as a premise
"If you are not aware then your actions won't match intentions."
Jeff
My comment was that to an aware person observing an ignorant person they would appear to lack integrity. Their actions and intentions don't match.
Razvan
and my debate is on why do you assume an ignorant person lacks integrity?
Jeff
Their intentions don;t match their results and they don't realize it.
Razvan
they dont have to realize it, their intuition can realize it
also , that scenario is still valid for an aware person
everyone fails
so the argument is that both aware and ignorant learn . it doesnt take awareness to learn
Jeff
Yes and an ware person will learn from it.
Razvan
it might speed up the process but its not mandatory
Jeff
Of course someone can choose to remain ignorant and many people do.
This is what I find so funny on Ray Taylor's NVC pages.
NVCa, NVCb NVCe, and several others
Razvan
btw
dont you think its mostly a competence issue?
Jeff
Most attempts at giving feedback result in attacks instead of trying to learn.
Razvan
i mean, peoeples intelligences vary greatly 1 their resources vary greatly as well 2 so imagine a less intelligent person with low resources vs a more intelligent person with high resources
Jeff
I think the issue is self judgment.
Razvan
so u see them as equals in intelligence , but with a flawed philosophy
a broken mechanism
Jeff
Yes and I am going to exercise the dogs. Catch you later
Razvan
aight, ttyl
im more a proponent of hanlons razor
i put competence stemming from hardware / physical issues first
then on resources check (stress , illness , and third on the philosphy . their learned mechanisms
Jeff
Briefly looking at it I agree.
--
—-oooO—-
—-(—)—-
—–\–(–
——\_)-
———–Oooo—
———–(—-)—
————)–/—-
————(_/-
—-oooO—-
—-(—)—-
—–\–(–
——\_)-