Razvan Florentin Popescu depends how wide you define vulnerability. theoretically lack of expression is the lowest form, any other form starts giving vulnerability. selfexpression, violent or not, is a form of vulnerability. it involves risk, and it offers information
Nathaniel B Kirby How do you define vulnerability? Is it just self expression?
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Razvan Florentin Popescu well, transparency is the highest form of vulnerability imo. the feelings attached to it or the context or the strength and intention of the individual are secondary and only serve as a higher intensity/risk vulnerability. its a scale. not binary
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Nathaniel B Kirby Thanks for offering this. I do think transparency is involved in vulnerability, I also agree that vulnerability is on a scale - and not binary. Further I see vulnerability as a path to connection, and for me connection is the goal. If I could achieve connection without vulnerability, hmmmm ... I was going to say that I would, but I realize that I do not know, and sense that I cannot know. For me, vulnerability is the start of so many things, creativity, connection, love, belonging, tenderness, care, hope, joy, feelings, ... the list could go on for a long time. How does this land with you?
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Razvan Florentin Popescu
mental intimacy scale
0 - deosnt know i exist (no awareness or relevance of your existance)
1 - knows my name (there is some relevance of your existance)
2 - says hello (shows courtesy)
3 - smiles (shows kindness)
4 – 1 on 1 small talk (neutral interaction)
5 – we have meaningful talk (shares personal values)
6 – we resolved a big conflict (regained intimacy)
7 - prioritizes resolving conflicts (accountable with intimacy)
8 - wants to share everything - anxious (in sync with your value system <90%)
9 - wants to share everything - secure (in sync with your value system >90%)
Nathaniel B Kirby Thanks - where did you get this ?
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Razvan Florentin Popescu well. if you know your philosophy perfectly, lets say you are autistic, or NT (from MBTI) , you can share the most accurate and full information, without the added (possibly nonexistant) emotions. one would not categorize it as vulenrability without the added emotions.. but its basically the same. i understand where you are coming from. and its a default human setting in our current context. not sure if you want to overcomplicate it. Maybe later, once you know you have taken down most of your walls you can return and master violence .. creativity is a muscle, which tightens on stress. it has nothing to do with vulnerability imo. vulnerability can be tense or relaxed. connection again, depends on the receiver. some people value competence above all else. imagine having a genius.. ud want his connection .. even without him giving u anything, let alone vulnerability
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Razvan Florentin Popescu i made it
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Nathaniel B Kirby Hmmmm - I sense I lack a frame of reference. I am in the process of removing walls / armor / protection and it is a hard yet worthy journey. I am going to agree to disagree about creativity and vulnerability - with one possible exception, and that would be unshared creativity, which I keep in my own mind and never exposed to another, that *might* require no vulnerability, yet I am unsure even that can be engaged without vulnerability. What do you think of what I offered? And I also disagree that connection depends on the receiver, for me, I can easily shut down and make myself unavailable for connection with no demand on the receiver. For me, I can connect with myself (likely the most vital form of connection) and that also requires nothing of any receiver but me. How does this meet you? For me connection exists between 2 or more willing available personas - and I struggle to imagine it occurring in the absence of some form of vulnerability. In terms of "imagine having a genius.. ud want his connection .. even without him giving u anything, let alone vulnerability" I do not understand this - what is being offered here?
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Razvan Florentin Popescu well,i think u nailed most of what i said, but you use a different structure i disagree with. 1 . creativity is a muscle, its an intelligence (in my framework) so both things are true, without disproving what i said. - they can coexist 2 . again, what you said is valid, but it doesnt disprove my theory. my focus is on the receiver, yet you talk about yourself. dont see how you can prove a problem by not using an essential variable. if the problem is about x, use x.. otherwise u created another system 3 ok, no , i think connections can be one sided. but considering you define connection as such (i mean, its all semantics, u can use a different term for what im saying though i think ur convoluting your vocabulary) then a genius caould offer his presence, could offer (again non binary) a limited amount of information. what is offered is a really funny question, for me its the most obvious answer. VIRTUE> virtue is the most essential value i seek in a human and in myself. the rest is secondary
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Nathaniel B Kirby Very well, very well indeed. I hear that virtue is the value that lights the way for you. That is wonderful and worthy. I applaud that. At the same time, for me vulnerability and connection are my highest values. My guess is that the 'structure', semantics and perspective disagreement resolves to a difference in core values. For me, I believe that one day (soon I hope) neuroscientists will prove that connection, empathy, compassion, resonance all compress down to one single phenomenon - the firing of mirror neurons (and for me I also believe that sources a deescalation of nervous system, and melts my shame).
Razvan Florentin Popescu well , its a bit of semantics a bit of structure and difference in values. im not sure, i thought they already did. also i dont really understand how that would help you or the regular human.check this out *fawning, or Fe function in MBTI (i know im making references , but its just an auxiliary flawed system)
https://letsqueerthingsup.com/2019/06/01/fawning-trauma-response/ People-pleasing can be a result of trauma. It’s called ‘fawning’ — here’s how to recognize it.
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Nathaniel B Kirby That last comment went prematurely - DANG FB <CTRL ENTER> snafu :( I was going to say that I believe that there are certified genius' that are unavailable for normal human connection (kind of like saying there are geniuses that lack virtue). I think if I can reliably engage self connection then my values might shift - IDK. Here is where NVC is interesting for me, I regularly attend a practice group, and the members all show up - I mean they really show up and I feel confidence in the ability to connect with them. This is a new social experience for me. I do see myself shifting as I trust this group more and more. How does this land.
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Nathaniel B Kirby Thanks for sharing that link. I do have some trauma and am working to heal it. And yes, I tend to ignore Myers Briggs and Enneagrams as I feel dehumanized when reduced to a number or some combination of letters - I feel like the fact that I have trauma, or that I exercise, or have wants and needs is ignored in favor of a classification - and I seek to avoid doing that to anyone else.
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Razvan Florentin Popescu im an NT, i fall in the we are robots side ) meaning nobody is special, mostly some operating system in a machines with different hardware. neuroscience will ramp up pretty soon and those labels will become science i imagine. i mean the intelligences …See More
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Nathaniel B Kirby Hmmm - 'humans are robots' (soon verified by neuroscience) that 'boil down to symbols' living in 'unlimited frameworks' all theoretical - am I hearing you? For me, this worldview appears dreary - perhaps dehumanizing. What is joy in this context (a robot running a program)? How about humor (some kind of exception in the programming)? For me, self connection is about much much more than 'syncing up with your (my) intuition'- it's about honoring the fullness of life that is present inside my being and about embracing the fullness of my humanity. How does this land with you?
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Razvan Florentin Popescu well, you see, you define selfconnection through humanity. which we differ in definition. maybe you are misunderstanding robots or underestimate them. its all a matter of integrated systems, humans have a lot of those. machines are getting there. soon to be verified by neuroscience was the personality theories cognitive functions etc. if that translates into robots .. for you sure. but i didnt say that. not sure where you added the unlimited* in there.. i think its limited. but what do i know. at the very least theres a hierarchy.. and theres structure.
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Nathaniel B Kirby Thanks. FYI the 'unlimited' came from the words ".. its not limiting in any way," that I observe you offered. Maybe I know a lot about robots - maybe not - does it matter? Humans are the result of natural evolution - as far as I am aware, robots/machines are products of a process far different from natural evolution. I am confused by the relevance of hierarchies/structure.
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Razvan Florentin Popescu a theory that isnt limited ,i wouldnt call unlimited, its sounds infinite. the point is to satisfy your intuition, your limitations. considering i used robots as a concept, of course it matters how well you understand that concept. i recon i probably made a mistake using it. nature, everything has a structure. the closer your estimate it , the more competent you are at loving it )
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