Virg
January 30 at 8:17 AM
Hi,
Warning : potential triggers - pedophilia, religion, politics and a lot of judgements...
From time to time, I see articles speaking about “forced marriage”, ie when girls are “sold” or “given” to an older man to be married without, obviously, their (the girl) consent.
My question is : why not speak about what forced mariage really is about ie pedophilia? Wether under cultural or religious “cover” isn’t forced marriage just that? Pedophilia?
Now I’m not sure what my request is about...
I guess I feel angry to see so many people not “owning their shit” these days, and this might be because of the context in France, and probably in many other countries too: for exemple journalists are invited not to speak about “violence used by the police” but about “appropriate counter measures used” I mean, really? People (civilians) are loosing eyes (because of flashbacks), have broken ribs, arms... and 2 men died because of those so called “appropriate counter measures”....
I guess I’m trying to understand..... and I know I can’t as long as I’m angry against these repeated and patent lack of truth, lack of ownership.... all under the disguise of “polite langage”, “cultural practice”, “religious practice”, what we also call “politically correct”. When we speaks about shit, let’s call it that way !!
For some reasons I don’t think I want empathy... for some reasons I want to be angry, because I don’t want to “accept” those behaviors. Because I see these behaviors as... unacceptable...
I guess my need is for understanding.
Trying to understanding why we speak about one thing when what we really are speaking about is a very different reality (like forced marriage vs pedophilia).
Understanding why, in my world views, these are denial of responsibility and ownership.
And why that makes me angry : because I don’t think there can be an evolution in human society if we continue individually or collectively to deny our own responsibilities (another exemple is with the environnement, and there are so many other areas, exemples, the list seems endless...)
Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for those who will be willing to engage in that conversation. I guess that’s what I need (too), a “conversation”, so I can have or be exposed to your world views as well, and see how they are alike or different, and most likely feel enriched by your contributions.
B.J. your post brings up something in me that really has bothered me for a long time. Over the past few years I have come to recognize how widespread the practice of pedophilia actually is. And, judging from archeological evidence and also from literary and artistic testimony, the widespread use of children for sex has been going on for thousands of years. Sometimes the activity is institutionalized and disguised with names like “child marriage,” or, “slave marriages.” Even in Ancient Athens, a girl of twelve would typically be offered in marriage to a man of forty. But whatever the form in which pedophilia presents itself, the practice of using children for sex is, and always has been, very prevalent. Once I read an article that discouraged the disclosing of acts of child abuse in the public media. The author was afraid that, if the extent of the practice of sex with children were exposed, the culture would start believing that pedophilia is a “natural” human instinct, that the using of children for sex is “normal,” and also that children are inherently sexually attractive. And that is just what bothers me: there is, and always has been, so much of the use of children for sex, both in the present and in the past, that one is tempted to start to think of it as something that is common or even normal, even though the sexual use of children typically shatters those children’s lives. When I consider that, I feel disturbed as I have a need for coherence, mainly with my idea that our deepest need is to contribute positively to each others’ lives. The only way that I can achieve coherence is to understand pedophilic behavior as the tragic expression of needs that are both deep and unmet. In other words, if the pedophilic instinct is “normal” at all, it is normal in the same way that walking around with chronically unmet needs is common, or “normal.” We might assert that we have been living for ages in a pandemic of unmet needs, of which the prevalence of child abuse is only a symptom. That the problem is intergenerational supports that idea, too. It occurs to me that, in some cultures, like those of Ancient Athens and Ancient Sparta, man-boy relationships were very common, out in the open, and considered normal. I don’t know what to say about that in terms of tragic expressions and needs met and unmet. Of course, we do not know the story from the boy’s point of view.
Razvan Florentin Popescu gonna try to offer some perspective. first, i dont think fixed marriage accounts for pedophilia. intuitively id say that its probably 30% of the cases when it does. fixed marriages are mostly people trying to secure their future, either of their daughters sons, or themselves (if payed) or their lovelife (if buying) as for pedophilia as a ageold practice.. sex is a basic need. how it manifests its somewhat secondary and it depends on culture and the consciousness level of it. all "bad" things come from weak / incompetent people. that being said.. i dont think equating child abuse to automatic trauma and ruined lives is ideal. might seem absurd, but its a maturity process. of course its one of high risk high reward .. that children are forced into. but i think whats damaging them the most is 1 the culture exaggerating the emotional trauma of things 2 the culture not well prepared to handle cptsd i think many of us have had our grandparents and older generations live through horrific things .. and come out ahead. baring children at 14-15. taking on full responsibility for family and field work.. rapes.. that was the norm.. it wasnt about fairness or trauma.. the trauma happens more when you rationalize it and insist upon it. so i think we are doing those survivors harm by putting so much tragedy on their experience.. that doesnt mean we shouldnt put a lot of effort into fixing it. but fixing it doesnt imply making a tragedy out of it .. people will start emulating those tragic feelings , even if they werent there
Nino I hear needs for honesty, mindfulness, collaboration. And maybe something I’d call “shared/applied humanity”, kind of a general love and trust.And peace.And much sadness/despair with all these needs unmet in so many places, on so many occasions.And maybe also some gratefulness for all the situations where at least some of them are met, for whatever reason? (And maybe a longing for “more such situations”?)
Virgi yes. I sensed some powerlessness.... I “know” I can only do “so much” I guess within my area of “influence”, and sometimes, or some days, it feels there is such a gap.... it can’t be closed.....
Aparni Sounds like you are angry with political correctness that whitewashes the truth in favour of the power over people who are doing the violence? And when you say you don't want empathy, are you saying you need to really be with your anger? Be angry? Because the anger is real, maybe?
Virgii yes for the anger. I feel I want to go at the bottom of it, express it, I guess it can be called “vent”, so at least it’s outside of me, and I can refill my “tank” with more positive and pleasing thoughts and feelings.... and at the same time, what can it make to vent... it’s not going to change anything to the overall situation (situationS) that bothers me today... And yes, I know it’s about my prospective on it, right? If you can’t change a situation then change your views on it or change the way you think about it... well... easier said than done...
Aparne I think it is ok to be angry where anger is natural. There may be other ways to shift to more positive feelings instead of having to shift these specific feelings right here and now.
Virg In fact both of your comments stands at each end of the rope so to speak : Aparni yes, digging for the anger and see where it leads me and Nino yes for the situations where some of those needs are met. Why it is the same rope for me ? I guess it’s a gentle reminder from my soul : I’m starting a non-profit organisation to teach NVC to kids through games, ie we skip the “theory” and jump right into the practice. I’ve made contact already, the mayor of my little village is ok to give me a space for free, I have to finalize the paperwork, and I’ll be good to go (parents I’ve talked about the projet are also eager to start). So my anger is maybe trying to point this out to me : to bring my focus back on that (boring) paperwork (which I have left on the side for the past few days), give me that kick, that boost, to tell me it’s worth doing this, cause that’s a (painful) step to make this whole adventure to truly begin... In other words, take my own responsibilities at my level to meet those needs, my needs. I’m still a bit angry, but I can see the value in keeping a tiny bit of it, to move forward, although, I would prefer to be in a more compassionate and peaceful state, so I can put my heart in it, not my anger....
Aparne so what I am hearing is that your anger is helping you get through some work, and while you want to hold on to a bit of it to propel you through it. Also I am confused -- is your anger about the things you mentioned at all in the present moment, or is it just something you are bringing on for this purpose? Or is it that the anger came at the opportune moment and you want to make good use of it?
Virgii I’m not completely clear neither to be honest, but I like where this anger is taking me : I don’t have the power to stop forced marriage, or make politicians to be trustworthy, or develop the f* humility they are drastically missing, so what can I do? Being angry for the sake of being angry is not leading me anywhere, but being angry in order to act “positively” from it, if that make sense. Even if I don’t act for or against what triggered the anger... It’s like in order to “rise” my anger deliberately chose something that infuriates me (pedophilia), and then, one thought bringing another one, I ended up with this “propelling” power as you suggest, like maybe, just for this, I need to get a little angry, just enough to move my a**, but not to much so I’m not devastated... I’m discovering this as I write to you, interesting.....
Apare I am intrigued. I am also wondering why you feel that your anger has to go (so to speak) because you can't provide a solution to the issues you are angry around. Are you feeling fear or concern that unless that anger settles it might do you damage?
Virgii no, not really... Anger to me is like any other emotions, it points to unmet needs.... The only thing is I skipped the needs identification to go straight to the strategy... So yes, in a sense, I want to do “something” with my anger, but not because I fear anything, it’s because I want to nourish my needs.
David Speaks to me about a need for clarity, honesty and integrity. Telling it how it is so the layers of denial and minimising are dropped as a step on the way to full acknowledgement, acceptance and then change ?!
Virgi oh yeah !!! That would feel so good !! Just for anyone being able to say “maybe I’ve made a mistake”, especially for those in power....... Of course, this would also require more people able to acknowledge the vulnerability and not to consider it as a weakness..... It’s touching my vision of a world we’re we could all be honest about what we feel, hear each other and then change together, take a different direction if and when needed. An ex-boss said something one day which I remember, it was more or less something like : we are not making “wrong” decisions, but the decisions that we thought was the best at the time, given what we knew at the time. And if it appears that the decision needs to be changed, then let’s change it. I admire that from a powerful woman : yes, she didn’t say that the decision was “wrong”, she acknowledge that we can change decision, that because it used to be done that way doesn’t mean it’s the “right” way or the only way. And it feels to me that we have so many new elements and knowledge which points to a vital requirement for change in how we think and act and are, and yet...... nothing (or maybe not enough?) is changing..... I’m probably a bit too impatient... To come back to my initial exemple : we know sexual abuse destroy children psyche and yet..... forced marriage still exist in the name of “culture” and “religion”, and perpetrator are almost never condemn, even worse, I just read one of those countries enforced the law to force girls and women to marry their rapist, or this boy I saw who proudly claim, laughing in front of a camera, that he would kill his sister if she was marrying someone outside of her community.... Because of the family “(dis)honor”...... All this is hurting so many of my values... Thanks for allowing me this “venting” I think I needed 🙂
Sam I think I relate to a part of this in particular: that moment when you can imagine with some clarity the world you would like to live in, that would meet so many needs, and for a moment it seems so close because your imagining is so strong... and then suddenly it seems so far away because you remember how much needs to change in order to get there... and that crash down to reality is really disappointing and hurts. Right?
Virgi yep !! But I don’t feel discourage because it thanks to this tiny anger that is « boosting » me these days
Denny I am similarly triggered when I hear "rape" being referred to as sexual assault or abuse or pedophilia. It makes it sound so much less horrific when reporters use that terminology, which I think adds to the trauma for victims. My need is for transparency. Not to make up terms that are more palatable for the general public. And when that need isn't met, I feel outrage. And I am okay with that. I feel more empowered to instigate change when in that state rather than when I feel ambivalent.
Virg Seems that is what is happening for me right now. And yes, maybe it's cultural, but I am more and I prefer more "in your face", or "straight to the point" and "tell it like it is" conversations than circling around and trying to keep the water warm even if muddy to save appearance and try not to 'offend' anyone..... It would be "nicer" or "cooler" if the fuel to action was compassion, and love, etc... and in some situation, this is exactly what it is, example when I offer my presence to someone, I do it out of love, I wouldn't be able to do it out of anger. It is very interesting to me, a discovery I can say, that anger can be an "as good" trigger to action than love for exemple, maybe just for different types of actions, like those paperwork I have to do : it's a pain in my neck, but doing these will take me closer the next step of my non-profit association, which would allow me to offer some teaching and learning dear to my heart, and meeting so many other needs. So, if I can't do my paperwork out of love, then let's kick my butt with anger, and do it nonetheless. I know the connection with previous post might not seem obvious from an outside point of view, it is for me, so I guess that is what matters :) I knew anger was a pointer like any other emotion, but I guess that's the first time I really experience it is a "positive" pointer, to put me in action. And the fun ting is : when I see myself trying to put the paperwork down the pile, I can somehow reactivate the anger just enough so I have the motivation again to go back to it and make some progresses :)
Alicas I am reading this, I have nothing to say other than, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I feel like I am not alone in this world. I have issues with a lot of "cultural" things. There is no together without setting boundaries. You are right, the anger…See More
Virg I would even say : child slavery period, cause I would not want the word “accepted” to be anywhere close to child (sexual) slavery 😉
Alicas yes! These are such confusing times. The problem of human trafficking is so huge and we never talk about it. I’m confused too.
Frey My understanding of what you have written is that you are thinking of forced child marriage as a separate activity that occurs sometimes in the culture you live in. Your thinking seems to be that this is an example of violence. The violence also occurs when police hurt people that they engage with. You do not accept these behaviors and yet you can see they are becoming the norm. The problem is denial of ownership and responsibility. You think of these social conditions and feel angry. You see empathy as one of the reasons people don’t do anything about these accepted violent actions. Your solution is to teach kids Nvc in the school system. Perhaps you are feeling afraid of acting from anger. Maybe noticing that there is no support for that? Have I understood what you have written?
Virg there is a mixture that seems to match, and some other that don’t really resonate with me (and that’s ok 😊). I don’t fear anger, I’ve learned especially with this experience that anger is like any other emotion : pointing to unmet needs. I am now simply amazed how emotions (and the brain and the body and whatever else is sustaining our lives) can take a path or some « entry door » which in fact as nothing to do, as a face value, with the hidden need. And that helps me to understanding that no-one except the person who speaks can validate which need(s) is (un)met : 2 persons can have the same emotion pointing to completely different needs, or 2 persons can have different emotions actually pointing to the exact same needs. Like dreams : only the dreamer can know what the dream really means. Yes, there are some archetypes and common symbols across humanity, and yet, seeing an eagle, or a car accident can mean completely different things to 2 different individuals or... sometimes, surprisingly, it leads to a similar « understanding ». Human psyche is so interesting 😊 I done now with the initial anger, thanks for taking the time to read me and the time to respond to me.
Taylor It's sometimes "child marriage", and it isn't always pedophilia - some parents in some cultures do it as a way to protect their daughter from rape, and there is an agreement that there will be no sex until she is older. If you are skeptical that this works or is appropriate, I would agree. The Pushkin podcast from malcolm gladwell, Solvable, has an excellent episode on this, and how it can be ended. You can find it on iTunes or Stitcher or Pushkin.
Virgi That doesn’t change the underlying issue : “protecting girls from being raped”, meaning male are considered as unable to keep their trouser on if they see a girl/woman’s nude arm (or whatever body area)... again, acting on girls, as if girls were the issue here..... anyway... it’s a long debate......
Taylor yes agreed - the societal focus should be on controlling the men's behaviour - or helping them learn how to meet their needs in caring, responsible, appropriate and age-apprpriate ways... ...and society is pretty bad at that (not that that is any kind of excuse, but is IS part of the problem, and I think it starts quite young) I don't think there is a single answer: both deterrence and a shift towards more healthy and healthily loving societies are needed\
Virgi You could say any and all human beings to meet their needs in healthy ways. The thing is, I start to be really annoyed when we put things back to « the society responsibility » : who/what is society? It’s US, every single one of us. So saying society is this or that or doing this not doing that is to me a way to flee our individual responsibility. Now, what do I do in regard to the topic we’re speaking about? I have a daughter, and I teach her about consent. It’s not “much” one could argue, but it’s something. And unfortunately, consent is not part of boys and girls education like math or mother langage is....... Let’s change that, every single one of us, one by one. So instead of blaming society for this or that, I wish every single one of us starts to question themselves on what they do, at an individual level, to make things change : cause « society », this big anonymous monster we can blame for everything going wrong, is US, every single one of us. So, what do you do to make things change, on that very specific topic? And we can take a lot of topics : starvation for exemple. I have stopped eating meat (if you have some education on the topic you know that for some to eat meat some have to die from hunger, and I can explain the whole chain if needed). What do you do to change that (avoid children to die from hunger)? Some for slavery, sad for everything we blame on “society”, it’s about time for each of us, individually, to take our responsability and power back. I’d like people to stop hiding being « the society monster », and start to really, truly, individually, own-their-shit. And notice how « own their shit » sounds very much like « ownership » 😉
B.J. Just to add two cents to the discussion, regarding child marriage, itself, I have known two couples from “Old India” — the early twentieth century — who were married as children. Both couples were married between ages of nine and twelve years old. In one case, the children lived together with the boy’s family, where the girl was treated kindly. The children grew up together and then lived together as adults and, finally, as old people. The couple had several children and the family was close knit, spiritually devoted, and very happy. In the other case, the boy was about 12 and the girl was 8. They each lived with their own families until the girl was 16 and the boy was 20, at which time they lived together as a married couple. This marriage was short-lived, as the girl died in childbirth when she was in her mid twenties. I have offered these few examples to suggest that there is rarely a single explanation for the merits or demerits of any institution. I have met so many people, from so many countries, who have have been married in so many ways and for so many reasons. In the east, marriages are arranged by families for a great many reasons, some conducive to happiness and some not so. In the west, marriages are made by choice for an equal number of reasons — some conducive to happiness and some not so. On both sides of the world, some marriages work well and provide the framework for happy lives, and some marriages seem to provide the framework for miserable lives. I have seen the gruesome consequences unwanted marriages by arrangement and also marriages by choice that may have been, at bottom, unwanted even at the beginning, or which became unwanted in the course of time. My conclusion is that, on both sides of the pond, people are just about as happy, and just about as unhappy. But regarding child marriage and pedophilia, I have made a comment below.
Razvan Florentin Popescu i want to add on the *meat issue. from my studies we are carnivore. assuming we are.. just like there is pedophilia and other human undesired instincts, what would you do? how would you view that world, where we thrive on meat, but that thriving implies some have to starve?